tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post6333782390695864434..comments2024-02-20T07:06:56.933+00:00Comments on THE SKINNER: Guns, Germs and Steel.Neal Asherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13933911904170752700noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-10395691753495599822011-02-25T12:08:19.576+00:002011-02-25T12:08:19.576+00:00Oh I don't know, Mr Maigo. The carrots are the...Oh I don't know, Mr Maigo. The carrots are there for those who toe the line: any of those jobs advertised in the Guardian, including at the BBC.<br /><br />Oofero, yes, where the crops could be grown was important, but still does not explain why Europe dominated the world when they did rather than the 'cradle of civilization'. The documentary was a simplification.<br /><br />Yes, I quite agree, Ryan.<br /><br />Thanks Nebris, I might see if I can get hold of that.<br /><br />Ben, documentary makers, go figure. Less time was spent putting over the points you mention and much more was spent on bits like him firing a bow with tribesmen (as in the picture) or getting all tearful in a hospital over malaria patients. The documentary was delivering a pc message rather than concentrating no the main thesis of the book I suspect.<br /><br />That's my reaction, unfortunately, to many history books, Caitlin. I find it difficult to grasp who they manage to take an interesting subject and turn it into something as dry as dust.Neal Asherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13933911904170752700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-53091044825800293922011-02-25T06:44:02.305+00:002011-02-25T06:44:02.305+00:00I got the book out of the library after having bee...I got the book out of the library after having been promised a "brilliant, original and thought-provoking read" in a magazine review.<br /><br />I lost the will to live after about 50 pages - and this is from someone who doggedly read ALL of Foucault's Pendulum.<br /><br />I can't believe someone could take such a promising subject and turn it into such dense, dreary prose. <br /><br />I watched the documentary as well and ended shouting at the telly, such was his sanctimonious, chin-bearded carry on.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04945363153491533742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-40581306175043597422011-02-25T01:29:34.240+00:002011-02-25T01:29:34.240+00:00You should've finished the book, Neal.
I can&...You should've finished the book, Neal.<br /><br />I can't remember the exact details - I read it some time ago - but the livestock/domestic plant/latitude point was only a small part of his overall thesis. <br /><br />I believe that his main point was that future European domination was forged as a result of:<br /><br />1) the geography of the Mediterranean, which was highly conducive to trade (and war) between many different cultures in close proximity which allowed the spread of ideas and technology; <br />2) the resulting arms race between the various European powers resulted in Europeans' technological superiority in warfare; which led to:<br />3) the rise of secularism, as people grew sick of religiously motivated wars (i.e. Hundred Years War etc) and the axis of political power swung from Rome back to the European elites. This in turn led to the Renaissance and then the Enlightenment.<br /><br />Our only conceivable opponents from opposing cultures (i.e. non-Christian) during this period were the Chinese (who'd retreated into isolationism in the 13th century) and Islamic caliphates who'd retreated back into dark age barbarism and intercene warfare (which they are still arguably in) from their brief golden age. The Ottomans did much to reverse this, but they were still left playing catch-up.<br /><br />So there you have it: a potted history of European domination. <br /><br />I must admit I haven't seen the documentary, but I enjoyed the book. I didn't detect any liberal political correctness, nor any "noblesse oblige", nor any adulation of noble savages living in perfect harmony with their environment. (His hypothesis that highland New Guineans are smarter than Europeans because of the different selection pressures acting on them i.e. avoiding being murdered by your neighbours, as opposed to being resistant to the plague, gave me something to think about.)<br /><br />As an aside, I thought it was an interesting exercise reading a book about history, written by a scientist (he's an ornithologist). Naturally, people writing outside their own field of expertise will attract criticism from the field's own experts, no doubt much of the criticism is warranted, but I don't think it was ever intended to be a serious scholarly work unlike Norman Davis's "Europe: A History" for example.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08499472315188043732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-66209011771627509082011-02-24T22:08:22.234+00:002011-02-24T22:08:22.234+00:00Diamond stole his book lock, stock and barrel from...Diamond stole his book lock, stock and barrel from William H. McNeill's earlier - and far superior - "Plagues and Peoples".<br /><br />*reposted w/ grammar fix..I'm obsessive..Nebrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05974591864059776528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-45258725220240078962011-02-24T22:06:02.178+00:002011-02-24T22:06:02.178+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Nebrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05974591864059776528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-23089176807399427082011-02-24T22:01:21.619+00:002011-02-24T22:01:21.619+00:00could've been contenders if they had thumbs:
...could've been contenders if they had thumbs:<br /><br />http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/70257/title/Ancient_fossil_sheds_light_on_early_evolution_of_body_armor<br /><br />Masada style.vaudeviewgalor raandisisraisinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045187732283895410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-85503360429175414732011-02-24T19:48:07.219+00:002011-02-24T19:48:07.219+00:00Trying to explain why Europeans came out on top at...Trying to explain why Europeans came out on top at one point of history is so multifactoral as to require more attention than any documentary can give.<br /><br />I had to read GG&S a few years ago at uni and I remember finding it quite contentious. The view that Europe was the place where science was invented and that's what propelled us forward is remarkably flawed. Greece and Arabia were places of much scientific and philosophical discovery long before any renaissance of Europe.<br /><br />The Arab empires fell in on themselves though and receded much territory that would later be taken up by a Christian Europe. From this Europe inherited a lot of science that was then improved upon during renaissance times.<br /><br />Europe was lucky more than anything, yes it's fertile (so are large parts of the Americas and East Asia), yes it had a renaissance (not the only place to adopt a scientific method) and yes there have been many diseases but at the end of the day if history was slightly different it may not have happened or it may have happened to some other continent. thats life for youRyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09144236546368420429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-1726898717110910292011-02-24T19:32:57.972+00:002011-02-24T19:32:57.972+00:00I was under the impression that the underlying rea...I was under the impression that the underlying reason was the latitudinal placement of our crops, rather than any other particular event/item that preceded the explosion of invention/science that this allowed.<br /><br />This type of excess of food at the time must have been something near incredible for people, at that time in our history, when the pursuit of hunger was prob a big part of a lot of peoples lives.<br /><br />Our first experience of how science can benefit us, if we just make sure the scientists dont have to toil in the fields all day, like all the other workers.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125098137654552369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-18850356057830437202011-02-24T15:08:22.839+00:002011-02-24T15:08:22.839+00:00Notice that no one has tried to control people thr...Notice that no one has tried to control people through happiness? It's always guilt and fear.Mr Maigohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15402010745969123672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-11202964850267890672011-02-24T14:15:25.960+00:002011-02-24T14:15:25.960+00:00I'm not talking about the book here, Chris, si...I'm not talking about the book here, Chris, since I haven't read it. I'm also not going to make the assumption that the documentary truly reflects the book because I'm thoroughly well aware of how documentary makers can twist things to their own ends.<br /><br />It was the machine guns, Stu, which we would have been on the other end of if we hadn't invented them first.Neal Asherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13933911904170752700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-40674583305855710622011-02-24T13:18:11.648+00:002011-02-24T13:18:11.648+00:00Nah...I'm with Rider-Haggard in 'King Solo...Nah...I'm with Rider-Haggard in 'King Solomons Mines'. All the natives were simply overawed by our 'beautiful white legs'.<br /><br />No guilt in that.<br /><br />Of course we did take such things as the Puckle gun which fired round bullets for christians and square for Muslim-Turks...<br /><br />Nah, it was the legs....8)Disco Stuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18205359202617582761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29616976.post-83009214006388780912011-02-24T12:35:57.194+00:002011-02-24T12:35:57.194+00:00Oh thank goodness! I was beginning to think I was ...Oh thank goodness! I was beginning to think I was alone in wondering if that particular emperor had no clothes...<br /><br />I had the good fortune to read David Landes' "Wealth and Poverty of Nations" before ever coming across "Guns, Germs and Steel". By comparison with W&PoN Diamond's GG&S was simplistic and sophomoric.<br /><br />In his - IMO far superior - book Landes ascribes European success in the modern era almost entirely to cultural factors, rather than inherent technological potentials.<br /><br />He makes the case that, in the long run, willingness to discard restrictive, irrational traditional social forms in favour of innovation, peaceful exchange, security of property and the rule of law make your culture a winning one simply through the workings of private self-interest.<br /><br />No charge of racism or orientalism will stick; cultural cringe needed: <b>anyone</b> can try their hand at that open secret.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.com